strangerpeople: (Default)
The Fifteen Strangers Mods ([personal profile] strangerpeople) wrote in [community profile] notasstrange2017-06-24 04:25 pm
Entry tags:

Post-Game HMD

HMD




It's time for an HMD! As it is the end of the game, we welcome everyone to come and give feedback to the mods as to how we did/are doing/what we could do better next time. Because...well, let's be honest, we definitely plan on doing a next round, but we also know we could tweak a few things to make the next round even better! We'd love to hear from you, so we can know what to do better next round, and in the future. We also welcome players to post here, if they would like some feedback from their fellow players!

Lastly: thank you! We want to thank everyone for making this first round an amazing experience, and we hope to see you guys in the future, for round 2!
poorlovefool: (smile)

[personal profile] poorlovefool 2017-06-25 12:43 am (UTC)(link)
First of all, congratulations on finishing R1 and running a really fun game! I had a great time, and I think I will have a lot of feedback both good and bad. So let's start with what was good.

For starters, I very much liked the themes of this game. This is as someone canon blind to Skyrim, I thought it was super neat reacting to all of this weird fantasy stuff that kept cropping up like the moths, potions, special weapons in the final investigation, and of course our powers! It was fun enough that I went out of my way to use all of them. I also liked that poking around for lore never seemed to disappoint. The lore was also very well written, I could tell you put tons of thought into it which was much appreciated. You were also flexible and put up with all of the rioting our violent little hearts desired, never a bad thing.

Second... and this is not just because it was a role that was given to me, but also as a former mod and fan of murder games... I am IN LOVE with the Fabricator concept! I haven't paid attention to too many all-or-nothing style murder games so I dunno if you came up with it yourself or not, but if you did, pat yourself on the back. Honestly I generally dispreferred the "culprit wins, everyone dies" combined with randomization format and one of the reasons was it seemed to create too many accidental or sympathetic killers, or cases that were plainly too simple to pose a challenge because of the fear of bad ending or the case taking too long to solve. Therefore I think that having someone who is explicitly there to mess up the crimescenes and provide misdirection is exactly what this style of murder game needed. It keeps things complicated and mysterious. I was very glad that all of the cases in this game definitely took two days to solve, and that you were willing to make the cases go that long. I would like to take a leaf out of your book in future modding in these respects. I still think case 1 was amazing - great use of powers plus a good case full of twists.

Now for some stuff that was kind of "eh." I helped you a lot in the second case and was really approving of the use of NPCs given the circumstances, but I don't know that I would have had the same opinion if I had known the third case would also be an NPC culprit. I understand that these were pretty bad circumstances behind the decision to run the second case that way and I think you did the best you could, but 2/3rds of the cases being NPCs just doesn't sit well with me. I did like the theory behind using Maglor as a decoy culprit to make that more interesting, though. However, in the future I think you seriously need to pay more attention to people's activity when you put them in important roles. In particular you had to use an NPC for the second case because both the culprit and victim rolled were inactive, and I think you see now that having an inactive culprit is asking for trouble. So it would be much better if you would roll inactive players as victims only - in a double murder if needed, but next time with a PC culprit (possibly with Fabricator accomplice the way we did this time.) If needed, you could give yourself more time by rolling culprit/victim a week in advance (ie. Start planning cases week 1 with no murder, roll out that case in the second week, start working on week 3's case at the start of week 2.) So that there are two weeks to work on the case and you'll have more time to work things out if someone bails on you.

Speaking of NPCs, I wished you would have icons for them on your mod account to keep them more distinct from each other, at least to upload as they were revealed. I am not sure why it wasn't that way, though if you are trying to keep it clean for future rounds then I guess that's cool. I also didn't really see the point of the NPCs from the parallel murder game... they were sort of fun I guess, but didn't add much to the plot. Serana added even less. Was she only there to explain how they got the blood for the arrows? It got a bit excessive. However since there were a lot of long stretches where it dragged towards the end, I suppose it was good that they kept the discussion going, but you could probably have accomplished that with less characters. Maybe had the Intercessor grow a spine back instead.

I did like Elenwen as an NPC though, and the whole Mantling backstory even if I found the lore leading up to it a bit hard to digest with my canon blindness. I appreciated that we had a mastermind with interesting reasons, as opposed to the "for the evulz" "despair" that is common in this style (not to knock that of course, Enoshima style is a classic, but a change of pace is nice!) Weakening gods and then killing them motive? Good shit. Very nice. Keep doing stuff like that. I think you could have used Sheogorath more too, since he only appeared in one other thread with Futaba, but I liked that concept for an NPC as well.

I think the only thing I was outright disappointed in was the final trial, and how it dragged on for a week when it really shouldn't have. I hate to say it, but there were times when you left plot questions hanging for hours. I hope in the future you pay attention and make the game you are running and its players your top priority. It was especially frustrating to me because your game was super good and it deserved it.

Anyway, I hope this feedback was useful and best of luck with R2!
Edited (decided that detail was unnecessary) 2017-06-25 04:34 (UTC)
almightyconflagration: (012)

[personal profile] almightyconflagration 2017-06-25 03:21 am (UTC)(link)
I already gave a few things as feedback before, but would like to add some stuff.

I'm going to second Des' comment about NPCs being heavily involved in cases. Cases 2 and 3 were a lot harder than they needed to be because they had NPC involvement and us players were looking to PCs as potential culprits. It might not have been so bad if our characters knew about Babette and Farkas. I also think it really caused the cases to lose something since cases tend to be more emotional when it's someone we know. It might have been better if Babette and/or Farkas accidentally revealed themselves at some point and we got a chance to get to know them.

I also feel Ai would have been better as a punishment rather than as a victim. That was another thing that made the second case hard, our characters knew nothing of her, didn't know she even had existed since the player was MIA, etc. Normally characters like that get removed via punishment. I get that was beyond your control, but I do think that case would have been much better if there was someone involved that the characters knew.

Now that being said, I do find it awesome how you guys were so flexible and willing to work with us and our crazy ideas that often came up at the last minute. A good mod team is going to be flexible and open to the fact that players have crazy ideas and you guys did well there. I do think this game had what is likely the best death via punishment and that came because you guys were open and receptive to my crazy idea.

One other thing I want to bring up is with deadland. I know some of the issues there was due to inactive players being involved in the cases, but I do feel there was definitely an issue that had I not volunteered to off my character, poor Yusuke would have been pretty much alone. I also felt it was very obvious that deadland was overlooked a lot because the mods were busy with the living, which is fine and how it should be. I've found the games with the best deadlands have a mod who is dedicated to deadland plots first, and only helps with stuff on the living side as needed. It's fine to have no deadland or one light on plot, but if that is going to be the case it's good for players to be aware of this.

However, I do want it to be known that overall the game was great and I think you guys did a good job addressing the issues that were brought up about the mock trial and made a fun game. I'm glad I took a chance and apped even if it did come because I didn't get into my first choice and I really appreciate you guys working with me. I hope in round 2 we get just as fun of a playerbase and hopefully less issues with inactivity.
zephyranthe: (Guess it turned out well.)

pretend this isn't like a week late shhhh (also 1/2)

[personal profile] zephyranthe 2017-07-02 06:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Hey mods! First of all, let me thank you guys for running this murdergame. I had a lot of fun playing with everyone and the mod team was a big part in making a comfortable atmosphere for the players. I especially appreciated how all my (many, many) stupid questions were indulged over Discord. To make this more organized and easier to read, I’ve split things up into sections, both with positive and negative points.

+++


Setting:
I was amongst the others who were canonblind to The Elder Scrolls, so particular specifics (like the scroll itself), escaped my notice as having been from an existing series. And I liked it! It was pretty fun putting together the pieces from the hints the Intercessor dropped. With that said, I do think that relying so heavily on a pre-existing setting does run the risk of having players (canon familiar or not) figure out a lot of details OOCly; maybe not a big deal in some respects, but it makes the potential for infomodding greater, even accidentally.

Regarding the actual locale, I think you guys did a pretty good job with the rooms provided, although I still think that the first area was still slightly lackluster, in that there wasn’t as much to interact with. I do think that looking over where people tend to gravitate for their top levels gives a good idea of what locations were easier to play with; for example, the conservatex was pretty popular even in subsequent weeks while the armory tended to get very little traffic aside from the first week. Hopefully this can help you guys plan out the rooms more in R2, especially while leaving out places like the boilery which didn’t seem to contribute much to the setting aside from more atmosphere. Actually, the only instances I can really recall the boilery being used were primarily during Futaba’s exploration and when Fie and Maglor tested out dust explosions there, where it was picked for the latter especially because the boilery seemed otherwise useless.

As Des has already mentioned, investigating new areas felt worthwhile, because there was quite a lot scattered about the premises. In my opinion, the investigations in the first week with the mysterious items helped make it more interesting, considering there was to be no trial that week. I feel like this was a significant strength, and it worked well for a game of this size to allow characters to contribute, particularly for ones that don’t do as much during trials.


Powers:
The powers really were an interesting concept, and I believe they were essentially the selling point - the major feature that made 15 Strangers stand out from other murdergames. In practice, I think that their incorporation in the game was a little hit-and-miss and if this feature is intended to be carried over into subsequent rounds, a slight rehaul of the system is necessary.

For one thing, since characters were never told what their powers were and how they were used, it was harder to incorporate some of those in the weekly logs and such. Don’t get me wrong - I understand how it can be fun to have characters discover their powers, and Eric’s sparkles are a good example of that. However, I don’t think it could have been that easy for all of them. Using Fie’s power as an example, I feel like I would have had to really contrive some sort of circumstance to make her accidentally activate it, particularly since it requires skin contact and acts more like a sort of charisma than anything else. Others, like Jr. and Laslow’s powers have very specific conditions to activate, which can again make it difficult to just “accidentally” discover these without specifically plotting around it. While perhaps that may have been the intent to encourage players to plan things out with each other, I personally felt like it was kind of too much trouble to begin with, particularly when Fie wasn’t the type to use that kind of power anyways. And this leads into my next point, actually.

I feel like using RNG to distribute the powers wasn’t the best idea. While you got funny things like Harley’s pyrokinesis, there were also powers that were wholly unsuited for the character. Again, let’s use Fie as an example: she’s not the manipulative type, and while I didn’t mention this specifically on her app, she also isn’t the type of person to engage often in physical contact, so it’s unlikely she would have ever used her power, even in a case planning scenario. It would have been better to try and fit the powers to a character’s personality so that at least the player can make use of it while being IC. One of the suggestions I’ve heard from others who stalked this game were to make the powers more like roles that come with a manual; that way, the character would at least know what they can do, and their abilities could remain secret if they wished. Another suggestion was to include a section in the application giving the players an option of choosing if they wanted the power to fit the character’s personality or not; this way, they’d be allowed to play with their power a certain way.

There was also another advertised feature of the powers that didn’t particularly pan out: the extra hints. It was pretty sad to me to see that feature wasn’t used after the first trial because I thought it was really neat! There wasn’t really any pressure to collect them, but at the same time it could help push things along while simultaneously providing a reason for players to get their characters to use their powers. I understand that it can be difficult to write a case considering this (outside of Ai’s and probably Futaba’s power, which probably could’ve been applicable in all of them) but it was still a little sad to see that it wasn’t used, particularly when the last 3 trials seemed mod-written anyways.

And while it wasn’t much of an issue in this round since Ai’s player was inactive, it does make it unfair for some players who end up with a power that seems heavily slanted towards being used for the extra hints, since presumably dead bodies aren’t really expected to appear much outside of murder cases or fatal punishments. I suppose a comparable example would be giving a role only meant for specific situations and having that situation essentially never come up? Anyways, just some thoughts if powers are something that’s being considered in later rounds.


NPCs and Mod Characters:
There ended up being a lot of NPCs, didn’t there? When the game started, there was only the Intercessor, but by the time the game ended, there were about 7 allied ones (although 2 were dead, of course), and obviously Elenwen who was the main adversary. Considering the size of our game and the survivor pool being composed of 7 people (one of which was played by a mod), having about half of the people in the final trial being NPCs wasn’t really a good breakdown.

I understand that Babette and Farkas were there because we didn’t hit the character cap and I believe that you guys mentioned previously that it was preferable if you didn’t have to resort to that. I don’t know if it would have been possible to change the plot slightly to accommodate for the fewer numbers (which would have been the best case scenario), but at the very least, they didn’t make it into the survivor pool, which was for the best.

Still, I personally found that the second case was unsatisfying due to an NPC culprit, and as noted by Nadia, we had very little attachment to Babette and Farkas, so their deaths didn’t feel like they had much emotional impact at all. And considering that you guys decided to have an additional case after that with Raphtalia as the victim, I feel like it could’ve been possible to have a PC kill off the two inactives for the second case and have both Babette and Farkas killed by an NPC for the third (considering that gimmicks do occur for the last “normal’ case). Alternately, it may have been better to not have tried and stretch the game out to 3 cases, if running low on PCs was something you guys were worried about.

I also agree that the addition of the 3 characters from the other game felt unnecessary, and bloated the NPC cast. From the journals that were scattered around, we had already gotten a good idea that there was another game occurring in parallel with this one, and I’m not entirely sure what the 3 characters were supposed to add. In addition, I do feel that their introduction at the end of the 3rd case seemed pretty forced; it felt to me that the PCs were godmoded into being completely helpless just so Camilla, Linkara and Santa could come to the rescue, which is a little offputting when you consider that it should be the PCs staying in the spotlight.

With that said, I did like the Intercessor as an NPC overall, and it was interesting getting some CR with them especially considering they were originally seen as someone somewhat adversarial due to their role in the game. I didn’t expect that the characters would get so attached to the Intercessor in such a short amount of time, and I don’t mean that in a bad sense. I do feel like there was some inconsistency in the way they were used, however, and towards the end they definitely seemed to become more of the plot device used to explain things to the PCs; this was particularly evident in the last trial, where it seemed the inclination was to ask the NPCs to help explain certain concepts or items. I’ll talk about that more later specifically for the Endgame section, though.

One last thing I have to mention is the participation of mod characters in investigations. While I understand the desire may have been to keep the ball rolling (particularly since the game was fairly slow for a murdergame), it honestly would have been best to not have it happen in subsequent rounds. For one thing, I do think that having a character check out a location first tends to act as a bit of a deterrent to others who may be interested in investigating that area; for the most part, I believe that people want to be courteous and not butt in on others threads, so by occupying a location it can put off people who would normally jump to investigate the area, if it were not being checked out already. For another, it’s basically giving freebies to the players, and while maybe this might be acceptable for the first case, it shouldn’t be happening in endgame; after all, how are the players supposed to feel like they earned their ending if they had some things handed out to them on a silver platter? It also feels a little… fake, for lack of a better word. It’s already a given that the mods would know the details of the investigations, so having this “search” occur as if that wasn’t the case was slightly off-putting to me.


Pacing:
First of all, I’d like to say that you guys deserve credit for putting together elements of an existing canon in a way that would be intriguing and workable in a murdergame format. I could feel the amount of effort and love that was pouring into writing up the plot. However, I feel like the main thing working against you guys was the way it was paced. A lot of the bigger plot points were all but left to the end, and many were in sprawling Google Docs that were honestly very dense to go through, particularly when your players weren’t familiar with much of the series’ jargon.

While I liked that we got some plot elements via all of the items that dropped in from the other game, it feels perhaps some of that could have been replaced with stuff that would be more relevant to things that came up in endgame. It feels like a particular issue here because while I had already figured out some stuff about the setting OOCly by around week 3 or so, there was no possible way to translate any of that into something IC; I think it would have smoothed things over for endgame if you tried to include more general lore that the characters could actually make use of and digest earlier instead of having to rely on a huge infodump in the last investigation.
zephyranthe: (Guess it turned out well.)

2/2

[personal profile] zephyranthe 2017-07-02 06:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Endgame:
Endgame deserves its own section, I think, because quite a lot of things happened there that didn’t really apply to the rest of the game. First of all, I do appreciate that we were given two days to do the investigation, especially considering that it was during the weekdays and there was quite a lot to find. Overall I think the actual investigation managed to go pretty smoothly, which was good.

A lot of the clues were in Google Docs though, and there were two rather sizable ones that were 8+ pages long. I do feel like this is had a bit of a role in affecting trial activity, because it was honestly a chore to go through them. I’ll be honest: I only really skimmed those longer docs because I was tired after coming back from work and didn’t want to go through them, and ICly I could get away with it because Fie would probably leave it to someone else too, unless she was really pushed into helping. It may be presumptuous on my part to assume others felt the same, but regardless, I do feel like it isn’t very good practice to have such a huge infodump at the very end. I know we’re all here to spend time solving mysteries, but that doesn’t mean it’s fun to spend a lot of time digging through the docs to find the relevant clues.

In any case, the slowness of the trial also did lead to a set of other problems. I won’t deny that I really wasn’t active there, and of course that’s on me. But I do feel that having the mod characters jump into the discussion to move stuff along wasn’t a good way of handling that problem. I understand that activity was poor, but it’s possible to first ping people about participating or asking the players if there were problems with the way the information was presented or whatnot. Even if it didn’t elicit a response, I think it would have been a better option to try instead of have the mod characters act. With that said, if you guys did try both of these and I just missed it, I sincerely apologize.

Tying into what I said in the NPC section, it does seem like there was a lot of need to ask them to clarify some points. The first thing that comes to mind is about the arrows: I’m not sure if you guys were intending for us to figure out how they’d be used aside from just asking Serana about them, but either way, instead of discussion, it felt more like we were just encouraged to ask the NPCs everything. Obviously trials are usually meant to thrive off PC interaction with each other, but that didn't really happen. Again, I know activity was involved in this, but when you have an easy source of answers right next to you… why not ask them everything? It’s the logical thing to do, especially if you trust that what they’re telling you is correct. It honestly would have been better if the NPCs were somehow kept from being able to participate though, just to avoid all of that.

After the discussion, there was the rest of endgame, which dragged out for far longer than it had to go, it seems. Again, I appreciate that we were given extra time for the trial because of all the Father’s Day absences so it stretched out longer than was anticipated. However, even afterwards when that portion was finished it didn’t seem like we had an ETA based on how much was left to cover. It felt like not much got done on Tuesday/Wednesday since it was mostly dedicated to just fighting Elenwen and even then the whole thing was finished a week later than it should’ve been. Again, I get that being stretched over onto Monday was not anticipated, but the fact that the players weren’t really told of how much was left was frustrating. I think that even if we finished up on Father’s Day, this issue still would have persisted, because it was a week long delay, essentially. That made endgame and the epilogue a lot more exhausting than it had to be, in my opinion.


Google Docs:
It’s probably a little odd to have this as its own section, but I figured I should mention it separately since it’s more about formatting and such more than anything else. But for such a short game, there was quite an abundance of these documents - more than was strictly necessary, I think. I noted previously that the length of a couple of them were a problem, but from the endgame investigation alone, I believe I counted 12 separate documents, most of which I believe were short enough to have been posted in the body of a comment.

I feel as if part of the reason why these documents were used were for the different font faces and formatting, but in practice I don’t feel like they added too much to the game, particularly when some of the fonts actually made them difficult to read. In addition, I’ve also been informed that some Mac users may not even be able to read the text due to the fonts used, and while that didn’t seem to be an issue this round, it’s something to consider in terms of player accessibility. Also, I’ve had issues myself with Google Docs not working particularly well on mobile, so that should be a consideration as well.


Feedback:
I appreciate that you guys put up this post, really. Still, I believe that all three of you were first time murdergame mods, and thus would’ve benefitted from having feedback plurks after each trial. It’s easier this way for the players since they’ll be able to respond while the case is fresh in their mind, and allow you guys to address some early problems to ensure that they don’t come up in the rest of the game. I think it’s also good as a gesture of goodwill to the players, to show that you’re willing to listen to their concerns.

+++


In any case, this ended up pretty long, but I hope it was helpful to you guys! I wish you guys luck on setting up another round, and I hope to see you guys improve on what you’ve got. If you have any points you’d want me to elaborate on, feel free to hit me up whenever, too. Again, I had a lot of fun in this game and I don’t regret joining at all.
Edited (proofreading what proofreading) 2017-07-02 19:20 (UTC)